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[Feedback] Zeny and Refining


Ema
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Greetings everyone,

 Below you will find the final proposal, with just one small adjustment to BSBs from the second one. Thanks for the feedback!

 

Previous item drop nerfs & Card-based drops

We will revert the item drop rate nerfs made in beta (https://gitlab.com/ragnarok-project-zero/bugs-and-suggestions-tracker/-/blob/master/changelogs/2020-04-06.md) back to 5x, as well as raise item drop rate from card-based drops to 3x (from 1x at the moment). This is both to give players more places to acquire zeny, as well as making the cards in question (e.g. Myst Case, Mimic, etc) more satisfying to use.

We have had a close eye on the economy and our various zeny sinks and feel like this would help players without being "too much" for the economy.

 

Blacksmith's Blessing

This item is usable from +7 upwards and preserves your upgrade level on failure (i.e. if you upgrade from +7 to +8 and fail, it stays +7).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/745953334611148841/746837273940590664/unknown.png

You will be able to buy them from an NPC or combine two BSB Shards into one full BSB.

Thus, the BSB recipe will require the following:

- 5m zeny
- 1 Mythril Ore
- 20 Oridecon
- 20 Elunium

OR

- 2 BSB Shards

BSB Shards will be dropped by the following:

- All Champion monsters at 1%
- Payon/Geffen/Desert Fever monsters at 0.03%
- GH Fever (once released) at 0.05%

BSBs are supposed to be a farmable and tradeable commodity that can be traded and vended to other players - having them available with the recipe puts a cap on their market value, creating a competitive market for dropped BSBs. This will help in keeping zeny moving within the economy, whilst removing less of it in the long term to help revitalize a stagnant buyers' market.

 

Refine Boxes
(No change from our initial proposal)

As previously mentioned, these are only obtained through Gelstars on kRO Zero. We would instead offer them for 4m from an NPC.

As these are entirely new items for us all, let us explain what they do - They are consumable items that randomly refine an item of your choice to a random refinement between +5 and +10, with no chance of breaking. An important thing to note is that they can also *downgrade* items.

These are the chances for the different levels of refinement from the box, from the kRO Zero website:

* First column is refine level and second is chance to obtain it

image0.png


We hope that these changes will improve the economy, as well as encourage players to refine items that are hard to obtain.

 

Second proposal under the spoiler:

Greetings everyone,

We would like to thank everyone who took the time to share their thoughts on our proposal!

The general consensus seems to be that most people were in favour of reverting the various zeny nerfs as well as increasing card-based drops to 3x.

Below you will find the other adjustments we have made to the original proposal:

 

Blacksmith's Blessing

This item is usable from +7 upwards and preserves your upgrade level on failure (i.e. if you upgrade from +7 to +8 and fail, it stays +7).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/745953334611148841/746837273940590664/unknown.png

We will double the amount needed per refine attempt (i.e. twice the amount in the screenshot), but halve the zeny cost - this way each dropped BSB will have less of an impact on the economy, but still be valuable for trading and vending.

Thus, the BSB recipe will require the following:

- 2.5m zeny
- 1 Mythril Ore
- 20 Oridecon
- 20 Elunium

On top of that, we would like to make them droppable from the following:

- All Champion monsters at 1%
- Payon/Geffen/Desert Fever monsters at 0.03%
- GH Fever (once released) at 0.05%

BSBs are supposed to be a farmable and tradeable commodity that can be traded and vended to other players - having them available with the recipe puts a cap on their market value, creating a competitive market for dropped BSBs. This will help in keeping zeny moving within the economy, whilst removing less of it in the long term to help revitalize a stagnant buyers' market.

Refine Boxes
(No change from our initial proposal)

As previously mentioned, these are only obtained through Gelstars on kRO Zero. We would instead offer them for 4m from an NPC.

As these are entirely new items for us all, let us explain what they do - They are consumable items that randomly refine an item of your choice to a random refinement between +5 and +10, with no chance of breaking. An important thing to note is that they can also *downgrade* items.

These are the chances for the different levels of refinement from the box, from the kRO Zero website:

* First column is refine level and second is chance to obtain it

image0.png


We hope that these changes will improve the economy, as well as encourage players to refine items that are hard to obtain.

Please let us know your thoughts on the updated proposal!


The initial proposal can be found under the spoiler:

 

Greetings everyone,

Today we would like to give you our proposal regarding both zeny-making as well as refining, since they are closely related.

Now, before we get into refining costs and materials, we would like to revert the item drop rate nerfs made in beta (https://gitlab.com/ragnarok-project-zero/bugs-and-suggestions-tracker/-/blob/master/changelogs/2020-04-06.md) back to 5x, as well as raise item drop rate from card-based drops to 3x (from 1x at the moment). This is both to give players more places to acquire zeny, as well as making the cards in question (e.g. Myst Case, Mimic, etc) more satisfying to use.

We have had a close eye on the economy and our various zeny sinks and feel like this would help players without being "too much" for the economy.

Refining

First of all, we should explain that on kRO Zero refining has quite a lot of p2w mechanics attached to it. To give you all an idea:

- Gelstars circumvent zeny costs for many things, but in this case specifically, the 500k/1m used to make Enriched and HD ores

- There are Refine Boxes you acquire from the Gelstar Lotto at a low chance from a list of items (more on this later on)

We have decided not to implement Gelstar usage for anything regarding refinements; but we would also like to add a few ways to make +9 equipment a bit more accessible to a bigger amount of players, as a lot of equipment bonuses on Zero require it. A part of this was already done by making sure our refinement rates with HD ores are adjusted to being the same as Enriched ones, just like they are on kRO Zero.

Thus, we would like to add two items:

Blacksmith's Blessing

This item is usable from +7 upwards and preserves your upgrade level on failure (i.e. if you upgrade from +7 to +8 and fail, it stays +7).

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/745953334611148841/746837273940590664/unknown.png

From +7 to +8, you need 1 BSB.
From +8 to +9, you need 2 BSBs.

On kRO Zero, these are obtainable through in-game means:

1 BSB recipe (2m)
10 HD Oridecon/Elunium (15m raw zeny cost)
1 Mithril

= 17m total for 1 BSB

We feel that this cost is too high, so our proposal is to take away the item requirements and make BSBs obtainable for 5m from an NPC - this would result in an average cost of 40m for BSBs from +7-+9.

On top of that, we would like to make them droppable from the following:

- All Champion monsters at 0.5%
- Fever monsters at 0.05%

This both gives players a chance to obtain them without spending lots of zeny, and also gives players an opportunity to create a competitive market for them if they get lucky with drops.

Refine Boxes

As previously mentioned, these are only obtained through Gelstars on kRO Zero. We would instead offer them for 4m from an NPC.

As these are entirely new items for us all, let us explain what they do - They are consumable items that randomly refine an item of your choice to a random refinement between +5 and +10, with no chance of breaking. An important thing to note is that they can also *downgrade* items.

These are the chances for the different levels of refinement from the box, from the kRO Zero website:

* First column is refine level and second is chance to obtain it

image0.png

As you can probably tell, these address the issue of there being no safe refine between +5 and +7 - but while keeping the RNG style of RO refinement in place.


This is our initial proposal. Like last time, we would appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions!

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Love every part about this proposal, still a really good zeny sink but at least approachable. This should allow newer players (even in the future) to obtain +9 gear and should retain older players in the amount of money they can accumulate without risk, as they will sink it into upgrading for a long long time .

 

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I do think we need more areas to zeny farm. at the moment niff is the best place to lvl and farm zeny and thus makes it so crowded it becomes bad for both cases.

It makes spamming solo instances more efficient than mob grinding that RO is known for.

Hope with these drop rate increase that other places become more viable and allow players to see more part of RO. i would also like to see newer lvling spots, maybe increasing exp in turtle island to allow players to move from niff but this is a topic for another day.

Upgrading itself looks OK as written. i think adding the BsB will massively help upgrading for thoughts that are rise advert.

 

 

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Solid ideas guys. I don't know how I feel about the BSB drop though. Making them drop from fever maps could potentially make the few maps available too overcrowded. The same can be said from the Champions drop. Niff would go bonkers and we would have a BSB flooded market in no time. They would lose their appeal as a money sink.

I like the idea of getting them randomly once in a while, but making them "farmable" makes me really uneasy. Perhaps, making MVPs or hard MDs drop them at a really low rate, could help with that.

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Sounds perfect

Reasonable drop rate for BSB, maybe the price is a bit too much, but this require more time to confirm since Item drop nerf was also reverted.

Refine Boxes i personaly don't like, but i understand and agree with the suggestion, unlike main kRO where refine NEED to go through +10 to make equipments worth, mostly equipments on Zero only need +9, so the boxes is more like a "balanced" way than adding +7 Certs and etc (These boxes works in similiar way of that Refine Hammers for Shadow Gears in Main KRO, which are equipments meant to stay at +9)

I liked, still sounds grindy because of the Zeny cost but i think fits well for non-P2W option, and i mean +9 is enough we just need to pray for RNGesus, these addition will make life better for sure.

please bring the Daily Attendence too, nothing feels better than get rewards for being addicted lol, and pretty sure it's a official feature.

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Just now, pedrotristain said:

Solid ideas guys. I don't know how I feel about the BSB drop though. Making them drop from fever maps could potentially make the few maps available too overcrowded. The same can be said from the Champions drop. Niff would go bonkers and we would have a BSB flooded market in no time. They would lose their appeal as a money sink.

I like the idea of getting them randomly once in a while, but making them "farmable" makes me really uneasy. Perhaps, making MVPs or hard MDs drop them at a really low rate, could help with that.

More BSBs on market is not bad, this is beneficial for who is farming and for who wants to buy to refine, but would like more this if was a gradual drop chance like

Desert Fever Field are mobby and easy to kill so BSB drop rate could be 0.01% for example
in the future we gonna have more difficulty fever maps, so the drop rate on these could be higher like 0.05% on GH Fever

so starting low drop rate and getting higher on the newer and difficulty fever maps

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I would make BSBs untradeable between players.

If we're designing this to be a zeny sink there's no need for it to be tradeable. A person farming for this would farm it for themselves to use, rather than seeing it as a source of income.

 

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Everything sounds fine to me but the prices of the bsb and especially the refine boxes.

1 hour of farming is equivivalent of 1m zeny on niff 2.

I Normally get at least one Card there  in this one hour.

Meaning 1m=0,05 Chance.

all fever mobs are agressive and easier to mob than niff (larger groups)

conclusion. 1bsb is not worth more than a mil zenny.

you could argue about progression etc and can go up with the price of convenience on 2m.

Still. If you want to keep the low farming zeny pace what we have atm on the server, and i really like the pace, you need to lower the prices.

15%chance to get it plus 7 would be even lower on the costs.

 

 

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Love everything about these changes except your intention to add BSB as a drop to fever monsters. Fever fields already have quite a huge traffic of people farming them so adding more incentives would be counter productive and make it frustrating to compete for space with others.
 

Honestly, I’d prefer if BSB was an universal drop rather than locked to specific area or monster. 

Edited by Kaal
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So I have run the numbers on this and here’s what I’ve ended up with:

 

Rough average current cost of refining with enriched/HD: 26mil + 54 ore + 7 pieces of gear.

 

Average cost of making a +7 or higher via refine boxes: 22.1mil

 

Average cost to go from +7 to +9 using BSBs and enriched. 40 mil.

 

these items together allow for a safe refine from 0-9 at a average cost of 62mil.

Edited by Lukien
Simplified it
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48 minutes ago, pedrotristain said:

Solid ideas guys. I don't know how I feel about the BSB drop though. Making them drop from fever maps could potentially make the few maps available too overcrowded. The same can be said from the Champions drop. Niff would go bonkers and we would have a BSB flooded market in no time. They would lose their appeal as a money sink.

I like the idea of getting them randomly once in a while, but making them "farmable" makes me really uneasy. Perhaps, making MVPs or hard MDs drop them at a really low rate, could help with that.

Cant put the BSBs behind hard content, it'll allow those that are already geared up to control and dictate the supply and prices of the BSBs. Newbies will have a harder time catching up. Having them drop from Fever Mobs and Champion Mobs will directly give a chance to new players to catch up in the economy as they're leveling up (if they're lucky and get a drop). While the wealthy will end up spreading the wealth as they buy from other players. 

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1 hour ago, Kaal said:

Love everything about these changes except your intention to add BSB as a drop to fever monsters. Fever fields already have quite a huge traffic of people farming them so adding more incentives would be counter productive and make it frustrating to compete for space with others.
 

Honestly, I’d prefer if BSB was an universal drop rather than locked to specific area or monster. 

Something to keep in mind. People farming for BSBs are going to go where it’s most efficient to do so. That likely means Payon fever or orc fever for anyone who isn’t a knight.

 

edit: also, more fever maps will be added in the future.

Edited by Lukien
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I think the proposal sounds great overall! A few comments:

Quote

make BSBs obtainable for 5m from an NPC -

I think it would be great to keep it as a sort of recipe that requires some ori/elu and a zeny fee - maybe even keep the Mithril but change it to needing 1 Mithril Ore instead. What that will do is it will increase demand of different types of ores, which makes them more enticing to farm.

As some other people have already said, I'm also not a big fan of adding BSB as a drop from Fever monsters, given how easy they are to farm. Having them drop a 5m item at 0.05% seems a little too much. Adding BSB to Champions sounds like a cool idea, but it will be so difficult to properly balance that drop chat. I would just add more method of obtaining BSB first, and see how that goes. And after some monitoring, you can always think about adding more methods if you think it's appropriate.

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1 minute ago, Timo said:

I think the proposal sounds great overall! A few comments:

I think it would be great to keep it as a sort of recipe that requires some ori/elu and a zeny fee - maybe even keep the Mithril but change it to needing 1 Mithril Ore instead. What that will do is it will increase demand of different types of ores, which makes them more enticing to farm.

As some other people have already said, I'm also not a big fan of adding BSB as a drop from Fever monsters, given how easy they are to farm. Having them drop a 5m item at 0.05% seems a little too much. Adding BSB to Champions sounds like a cool idea, but it will be so difficult to properly balance that drop chat. I would just add more method of obtaining BSB first, and see how that goes. And after some monitoring, you can always think about adding more methods if you think it's appropriate.

I feel like people are fixating on the 5mil value. The intent is to have these farmable and tradeable with their potential value being capped by the npc recipe. Regardless of their source players will farm these to use rather then farm the zeny.

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1 hour ago, Timo said:

I think the proposal sounds great overall! A few comments:

I think it would be great to keep it as a sort of recipe that requires some ori/elu and a zeny fee - maybe even keep the Mithril but change it to needing 1 Mithril Ore instead. What that will do is it will increase demand of different types of ores, which makes them more enticing to farm.

As some other people have already said, I'm also not a big fan of adding BSB as a drop from Fever monsters, given how easy they are to farm. Having them drop a 5m item at 0.05% seems a little too much. Adding BSB to Champions sounds like a cool idea, but it will be so difficult to properly balance that drop chat. I would just add more method of obtaining BSB first, and see how that goes. And after some monitoring, you can always think about adding more methods if you think it's appropriate.

Cool Idea, don't make the BSB's directly farmable, but make the materials farmable!!

How about:

1BSB= 5M

1BSB=50 Ori + 50 ELU + 50 Steel 

Or how about, since we have so much looted weapons/armors on this server, an NPC where 1 looted weapon = 1 point

1BSB=2000points

 

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Think about the BSB proposal that seems to be overlooked by everyone :
The point is not to be a zeny sink specifically -> the point is, thats a farmable tradeable item that allows a player market to undercut the 5M npc, while the 5M NPC is the main contributor to always have those items avaible when they are not underfarmed. Eventually the price of BSB on the market will drop down because the market is oversaturated, but with that newer players have a easier approach to those items specifically.

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how about instead of buffing the drops on those easy to kill mobs, increase mob density on higher level maps.  this would also solve the leveling map issue right now as everyone flocks to Niff 1.  Some maps that can use some love would be Niff 2, Chiv 2, Castle 1/2, Prison 1/2 for example

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The "there is no place to level " issue should be tackled in another topic really, since these kind of things useally solve themself and are always a complain in early map iterations of RO, after all you are not suppose to reach lv 99 easily as its the last level for the current last dungeon, if you reach this level at later major update faster thats senseable,right now its entirely ok for it to take some more time.

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13 hours ago, musai said:

how about instead of buffing the drops on those easy to kill mobs, increase mob density on higher level maps.  this would also solve the leveling map issue right now as everyone flocks to Niff 1.  Some maps that can use some love would be Niff 2, Chiv 2, Castle 1/2, Prison 1/2 for example

This topic isnt about mob density. and of those maps listed, all but Niff 2 and castle will change in the GH fever patch.

Edit: in addition to that, the reason niff is so popular right now is because its hands down the best zeny/h and exp/h farming spot, with the drop changes being reverted from beta, it will likely be on par with sea otters for zeny so players farming there strictly for zeny will likely spread out a bit.

Edited by Lukien
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Love the proposal on the refining changes but I don't agree on upping all zeny related drops. These end-gear equipment take a while to grind, it also let's you hold onto it and upgrade it over time which is better over the old refining system of just getting 23 items and hoping one of them hits +7. Those random options to me, aren't too compatible with the old way of refining. You don't want to farm 20 mufflers with FlatATK and Flee and hope that one of them gets to +7. 

I'd vote for a lower rate on popular zeny farming maps to motivate exploration and preventing a mass zenny generation by the mass population. The problem is, if everyone's leveling their alternate AGI characters at Toy Factory from level 50 to 70, you will create a big influx of zenny. We need to weight out the map difficulty and what is dropped. (5x is a bit too much, a lower number) One example would be old school Desert Wolves: It was a really inflating map because you could just warp there and permanently farm it. But for maps where you cannot warp yourself and get into maybe let's say 3 levels deep into a dungeon, you shouldn't penalize those maps, because they can't just come in and out and warp back there. Its less efficient. Going deep into a dungeon should be rewarded, that's another reason why people won't go to Majos but would warp to Nif its too penalizing to die there. With Nif, you can literally get someone to warp you there.

Item drop rate from Cards should definitely go up, it will players a chance to plug it into the economy as well.

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